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	<title>Comments on: Spinning Wing Airliner</title>
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	<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/</link>
	<description>Yesterday's tomorrow, today.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 03:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Pittance</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055705</link>
		<dc:creator>Pittance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 14:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055705</guid>
		<description>Newton's second law provides lift, just like with all inertial forces.  

Aircraft create lift (upwards force) because they push down on the air and so change its momentum (combination of mass and velocity).  If they pushed up on the air they'd create a downforce - physics doesn't care about the direction...

Newton's second law says force is equal to rate of change of momentum so when I change the momentum of a bit of air I get a force. (In fact this force isn't just lift it's also a bit of drag but that's not important right now...)

There is, however _also_ a change of pressure over the wing - these two effects aren't separate they're two sides of the same coin; pressure is just force distributed over an area.  Newton's third law which says that (to paraphrase) "if I push on this air it pushes back on me with equal strength in the opposite direction".  So if an aircraft pushes down on the air, the air must push up on it, hence lift. Pressures are the way that these forces are transferred to the structure of the aircraft. 

There's no magic, physics doesn't somehow ignore aircraft. 

The air _does_ flow faster over the top of a wing because of two reasons, incidence (angle to the airflow) and the shape of the wing.  This is why an aircraft goes nose-up to increase lift and why it can use flaps and other control surfaces, they change the shape of the wing.  This increase in speed is a result of and part of lift generation.

Bernoulli's principle is in operation on all aircraft but it's an approximation that assumes that air is incompressible.  This is nearly true for low-speed aircraft (light planes etc.) but becomes increasingly inaccurate as speeds rise.  At the speeds of modern airliners it's useless as a way to predict anything.  Bernoulli's principle isn't a 'natural law' it's a tool for prediction of effects.

Helicopters work the same way - and they can also fly upside down but usually don't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Newton&#8217;s second law provides lift, just like with all inertial forces.  </p>
<p>Aircraft create lift (upwards force) because they push down on the air and so change its momentum (combination of mass and velocity).  If they pushed up on the air they&#8217;d create a downforce - physics doesn&#8217;t care about the direction&#8230;</p>
<p>Newton&#8217;s second law says force is equal to rate of change of momentum so when I change the momentum of a bit of air I get a force. (In fact this force isn&#8217;t just lift it&#8217;s also a bit of drag but that&#8217;s not important right now&#8230;)</p>
<p>There is, however _also_ a change of pressure over the wing - these two effects aren&#8217;t separate they&#8217;re two sides of the same coin; pressure is just force distributed over an area.  Newton&#8217;s third law which says that (to paraphrase) &#8220;if I push on this air it pushes back on me with equal strength in the opposite direction&#8221;.  So if an aircraft pushes down on the air, the air must push up on it, hence lift. Pressures are the way that these forces are transferred to the structure of the aircraft. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s no magic, physics doesn&#8217;t somehow ignore aircraft. </p>
<p>The air _does_ flow faster over the top of a wing because of two reasons, incidence (angle to the airflow) and the shape of the wing.  This is why an aircraft goes nose-up to increase lift and why it can use flaps and other control surfaces, they change the shape of the wing.  This increase in speed is a result of and part of lift generation.</p>
<p>Bernoulli&#8217;s principle is in operation on all aircraft but it&#8217;s an approximation that assumes that air is incompressible.  This is nearly true for low-speed aircraft (light planes etc.) but becomes increasingly inaccurate as speeds rise.  At the speeds of modern airliners it&#8217;s useless as a way to predict anything.  Bernoulli&#8217;s principle isn&#8217;t a &#8216;natural law&#8217; it&#8217;s a tool for prediction of effects.</p>
<p>Helicopters work the same way - and they can also fly upside down but usually don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Waste</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055124</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Waste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 00:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055124</guid>
		<description>The other thing I find odd about this, is the assumed need for a second engine to turn the cylinder!  The main engine would provide plenty of power - it powers all the onboard systems of modern airliners, including the hydraulics - which can get sticky if the engines flame out in midair, as happened once from a faulty fuel gauge. (Interestingly, in that case a little propeller-driven generator popped out of the hull automatically and provided power to the hydraulicsâ€¦ which only got sticky when the pilot was landing, and shed his airspeed, and his controls started freezing upâ€¦)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other thing I find odd about this, is the assumed need for a second engine to turn the cylinder!  The main engine would provide plenty of power - it powers all the onboard systems of modern airliners, including the hydraulics - which can get sticky if the engines flame out in midair, as happened once from a faulty fuel gauge. (Interestingly, in that case a little propeller-driven generator popped out of the hull automatically and provided power to the hydraulicsâ€¦ which only got sticky when the pilot was landing, and shed his airspeed, and his controls started freezing upâ€¦)</p>
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		<title>By: JMyint</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055104</link>
		<dc:creator>JMyint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 14:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055104</guid>
		<description>It is angle of attack that provides lift.  Most airplanes can only fly inverted for a seconds because of mechanical limitations not aerodynamic ones.  Fuel tanks and fuel pumps that are designedwith a specific up and down in mind, engine mounts designed for gravity in one direction.  The Piper Cub had the fuel tank above the pilot with gravity feed.  

Originally it was thought the Bernoulli principle was what gave airplanes lift until the problem of the upside down airplane was considered. Then the investigation into new wing shapes also distanced Bernoulli's as the primary source of lift.

More on the angle of attack from NASA at www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/incline.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is angle of attack that provides lift.  Most airplanes can only fly inverted for a seconds because of mechanical limitations not aerodynamic ones.  Fuel tanks and fuel pumps that are designedwith a specific up and down in mind, engine mounts designed for gravity in one direction.  The Piper Cub had the fuel tank above the pilot with gravity feed.  </p>
<p>Originally it was thought the Bernoulli principle was what gave airplanes lift until the problem of the upside down airplane was considered. Then the investigation into new wing shapes also distanced Bernoulli&#8217;s as the primary source of lift.</p>
<p>More on the angle of attack from NASA at <a href="http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/incline.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-.....cline.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: JMyint</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055101</link>
		<dc:creator>JMyint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 13:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055101</guid>
		<description>It's angle of attack that provides lift. The reason most planes can only fly upside down for a short period is not because of lift but because of mechanical limitations.  Fuel tanks and pumps designed with a specific up and down, engine mounts designed with gravity in mind are what limit a planes ability to fly inverted.  

Early in the days of aviation the Bernoulli principle seemed to be what was holding planes up but when exotic aircaft types with different wing shape were investigated it was found that something else was providing lift.  

Read about it at NASA's web  page.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/incline.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s angle of attack that provides lift. The reason most planes can only fly upside down for a short period is not because of lift but because of mechanical limitations.  Fuel tanks and pumps designed with a specific up and down, engine mounts designed with gravity in mind are what limit a planes ability to fly inverted.  </p>
<p>Early in the days of aviation the Bernoulli principle seemed to be what was holding planes up but when exotic aircaft types with different wing shape were investigated it was found that something else was providing lift.  </p>
<p>Read about it at NASA&#8217;s web  page.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/incline.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-.....cline.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: jsimpso1</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055099</link>
		<dc:creator>jsimpso1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 13:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055099</guid>
		<description>Blurgle, find the answers here http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html and here http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/miscon4.html#wing

NASA also maintains a webopage that specifically addresses the rotating cylinder concept http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cyl.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blurgle, find the answers here <a href="http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html" rel="nofollow">http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html</a> and here <a href="http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/miscon/miscon4.html#wing" rel="nofollow">http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/m......html#wing</a></p>
<p>NASA also maintains a webopage that specifically addresses the rotating cylinder concept <a href="http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cyl.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cyl.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Baron Waste</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055098</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Waste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 13:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055098</guid>
		<description>Blurgle: I would surmise he's thinking of jet aircraft, which travel so fast that they 'plane' through the air like water-skies on the water.  Their wings are more lens-shaped in cross section, sometimes diamond-shaped: Air pressure and lift are indeed irrelevant at 400 miles per hour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blurgle: I would surmise he&#8217;s thinking of jet aircraft, which travel so fast that they &#8216;plane&#8217; through the air like water-skies on the water.  Their wings are more lens-shaped in cross section, sometimes diamond-shaped: Air pressure and lift are indeed irrelevant at 400 miles per hour.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Giachetti</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055088</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Giachetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 09:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055088</guid>
		<description>Blurgle.... Magic!    lil fairies hold the wings up. :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blurgle&#8230;. Magic!    lil fairies hold the wings up. <img src='http://blog.modernmechanix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Blurgle</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055087</link>
		<dc:creator>Blurgle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 07:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055087</guid>
		<description>JMyint, most aircraft can't fly upside down for more than a second or so. If lift doesn't allow aircraft to fly, pray tell what does?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMyint, most aircraft can&#8217;t fly upside down for more than a second or so. If lift doesn&#8217;t allow aircraft to fly, pray tell what does?</p>
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		<title>By: JMyint</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055049</link>
		<dc:creator>JMyint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 18:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055049</guid>
		<description>"The lift of an airplane wing is caused by the fact that the air passing over the top of a wing travels faster than that passing over the bottom. A law of science says that the faster air travels, the more its pressure is reduced. This difference in air pressure between the top and bottom of the wing results in lift. The addition of a rotating drum speeds up the air over the wing and slows up the air under the wing still more, resulting in still greater pressure difference and hence, greater lift. Early tests show an increase of 100 to 200 per cent."

This is known as the Bernoulli's principle and it is not why planes fly.  If'n it were the case airplanes could not fly upside down.  

The Magnus effect is one of many various quirks in aerodynamics that is just not scalable.  Yeah a bumble bee can fly but you are not going to see a man sized bumble bee type flying machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The lift of an airplane wing is caused by the fact that the air passing over the top of a wing travels faster than that passing over the bottom. A law of science says that the faster air travels, the more its pressure is reduced. This difference in air pressure between the top and bottom of the wing results in lift. The addition of a rotating drum speeds up the air over the wing and slows up the air under the wing still more, resulting in still greater pressure difference and hence, greater lift. Early tests show an increase of 100 to 200 per cent.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is known as the Bernoulli&#8217;s principle and it is not why planes fly.  If&#8217;n it were the case airplanes could not fly upside down.  </p>
<p>The Magnus effect is one of many various quirks in aerodynamics that is just not scalable.  Yeah a bumble bee can fly but you are not going to see a man sized bumble bee type flying machine.</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Waste</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1055045</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Waste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 15:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1055045</guid>
		<description>Someone seems to think it works as advertised:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect#Flying_Machine




&#62; Many flying machines incorporate this idea by generating lift with a 
&#62; rotating cylinder at the front of a wing that allows flight at lower 
&#62; horizontal speeds. [1] (Flettner rotor plane)
&#62;
&#62; A remote controlled prototype was featured on the DIY network show, 
&#62; "Radio-Control Hobbies" that used the Magnus effect as the primary lift 
&#62; and thrust mechanism. It consisted of a fan-like rotator generating the 
&#62; Magnus effect which allowed it to lift off after traveling only a few feet 
&#62; forward.
&#62;
&#62; A series of prototypes were built of a design called FanWing. Wind-tunnel 
&#62; tests were conducted in 1998 by Pat Peebles at the University of Rome.
&#62;
&#62; A patent was filed by Fred Ferguson in the 1980's for an airship which 
&#62; used the Magnus effect as its primary lift and propulsion.
&#62;
&#62; The Rotor and UFO kites use the Magnus effect for lift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone seems to think it works as advertised:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect#Flying_Machine" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....ng_Machine</a></p>
<p>&gt; Many flying machines incorporate this idea by generating lift with a<br />
&gt; rotating cylinder at the front of a wing that allows flight at lower<br />
&gt; horizontal speeds. [1] (Flettner rotor plane)<br />
&gt;<br />
&gt; A remote controlled prototype was featured on the DIY network show,<br />
&gt; &#8220;Radio-Control Hobbies&#8221; that used the Magnus effect as the primary lift<br />
&gt; and thrust mechanism. It consisted of a fan-like rotator generating the<br />
&gt; Magnus effect which allowed it to lift off after traveling only a few feet<br />
&gt; forward.<br />
&gt;<br />
&gt; A series of prototypes were built of a design called FanWing. Wind-tunnel<br />
&gt; tests were conducted in 1998 by Pat Peebles at the University of Rome.<br />
&gt;<br />
&gt; A patent was filed by Fred Ferguson in the 1980&#8217;s for an airship which<br />
&gt; used the Magnus effect as its primary lift and propulsion.<br />
&gt;<br />
&gt; The Rotor and UFO kites use the Magnus effect for lift.</p>
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		<title>By: Firebrand38</title>
		<link>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/05/15/spinning-wing-airliner/#comment-1054995</link>
		<dc:creator>Firebrand38</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 16:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.modernmechanix.com/?p=4465#comment-1054995</guid>
		<description>This principle was tested for hydrofoils by the Navy in 1963.  Conclusion was that it wasn't really worth the effort.  The entire report may be downloaded here http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD403808</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This principle was tested for hydrofoils by the Navy in 1963.  Conclusion was that it wasn&#8217;t really worth the effort.  The entire report may be downloaded here <a href="http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD403808" rel="nofollow">http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD403808</a></p>
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